Saltash Rail Users Furious At Final Timetable Cuts For Dec 11th

Save the Train forum

Dedicate to campaigning to retain an appropriate "TransWilts" passenger train service ... Swindon - Chippenham - Melksham - Trowbridge - Westbury - Dilton Marsh - Warminster - Salisbury ... and to other services too

THIS FORUM IS NOW A READ-ONLY ARCHIVE. Please use our Coffeeshop Forum for new posts

link to main site

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 24, 2012, 05:58:39 PM

Recommended service - hourly, according to the GWRUS. Let's work towards that service and towards ensuring all services are used.

7889 Posts in 5009 Topics by 97675 Members
Latest Member: dsmocrsefvn

Passengers using Saltash station are dismayed that First Great Western has failed to preserve service levels at Saltash in the face of pressure from the Department for Transport (link below.)
http://www.srug.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=2

Speaking for Saltash Rail Users Group (SRUG), Roger Creagh-Osborne(chair) said "The loss of the early dockyard train, the massive cuts in off peak services, and the cuts in useful services to the West of the county will all have the effect of forcing more people onto the roads. The fine words of the government on tackling climate change are totally undermined by the actions of their civil servants in DfT"

Richard Bickford for SRUG added "We still have 23 trains each way passing through the station, many of these terminate or start locally and could make an extra stop with minimal effect on the timetable. By failing to provide a service that meets the needs of passengers FGW are loosing customers who it will be difficult to regain in the future."

SRUG are organising a public meeting on 23rd November at 7pm in Saltash Guildhall (link below.)
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=615.msg1858#msg1858

Although this post isn't following up concerning Saltash, it may be pertinant to the case there ... please read on

I was having a discussion last night concerning just why, with a population of around 24,000, with an excellent business case for a 2-hourly service in addition to the proposed marginal time service using the Stroud Valley unit, the TransWilts service seems to have been shrunk to an-viable alternative from December.

One of the options suggested was that, with the emphasis on service punctuallit and reliability, it's better for the operator (First) to run minimal trains, and at quiet times only. What do I mean? Where am I coming from?

Let me give examples.

On 7th November, the 17:43 from Swindon was held up for 15 minutes at Thingley Junction, awaiting entry onto the single track through Melksham because of a preceeding track maintainance unit. That blocking of the mainline would, I'm sure, have had a knock-on effect on following 125s, perhaps to the extent that they suffered significant delay. And significant delay can lead to penalties against the operator. Had there NOT been a peak hour service from Swindon in the timetable, no delays to the 125s, no problem for the operators.

On 9th and 14th November, the 17:02 from Melksham to Swindon and the 17:43 return were cancelled (leaving no up trains at all between the 13:35 and 21:33). Again, a penalty against First which they could have avoided if the train hadn't been scheduled in the first place. 17:02 / 17:43 is a time that the operator needs most of their trains in service - how better to save the penalties than not schedule a peak train at all? How about having in come through in the evening instead, when the lines are quieter and there's more slack in stock allocation?

Sadly, we have a system where withdrawing services that are heavily used and 'break even' makes narrow economic sense for an operator who has a series of sanctions and penaltise that can be levelled against him if he fails to meet a specification which, although brought in with good intent (no doubt) leads to the withdrawl of services on the basis that if they're not scheduled in the first place, they can't attract any penaltise against themselves or other trains that happen to be around and have conflicting movements.

I see mention of First main line and Virgin trains at Saltash and I know that the bridge (at least) is single track. So is the section through Melksham - so perhaps there may be some parallels?

Good luck with the meeting!

Quote from: Graham Ellis on November 18, 2006, 10:25:06 AM

I see mention of First main line and Virgin trains at Saltash and I know that the bridge (at least) is single track. So is the section through Melksham - so perhaps there may be some parallels?

Judge for yourself , Graham. Here is the Saltash timetable from December 2006 (link below.)
http://www.srug.org.uk/Dec11timetable.pdf

I would also recommend for further reading the following section of the Network Rail Business Plan 2006 (link below.)
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/3110_Route%2012%20Reading%20to%20Penzance.pdf

Quote from: Graham Ellis on November 18, 2006, 10:25:06 AM

You may find the following recent FOI disclosure interesting.

E-MAIL FROM CAROLE KING (SRA) TO DAVID PHILLIPS (Wiltshire County Council) DATED 11/07/2005.

Please find enclosed the draft indicative timetables for the Greater Western franchise. I would caveat this information with -

1. This is confidential, market sensitive information that should not be disseminated beyond Officer level. The draft timetables form part of the bidding process and this is not similar to other timetable consultations that have been undertaken by an incumbent TOC i.e ATW's Standard Pattern Timetable consultation.

2. The timetables shown are fixed between the core areas of -
Paddington - Southcote Junction
Paddington - Oxford
Paddington - Severn Tunnel Junction
Paddington - Bristol Temple Meads

and have been validated by Network Rail accordingly. The rest of the Greater Western area is not counted as fixed and timings and pathing outside the core area are at the bidders discretion. We would suggest, therefore, that you make direct contact with the three pre-qualified bidders regarding any changes you believe should be made to the timetables in the non-core area.

3. The rolling stock used to meet the timetables will be at bidders discretion, but must be capable of satisfying Network Rail that timings can be robustly met. And satisfying SRA/DfT that capacity exists to carry forecast demand over the life of the franchise.

Here is a link to the London to Cheltenham Spa , Bristol & South Wales and Somerset December 2006 timetable.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/Timetables/December%202006/Book%20A%20REVISED%20(London,%20Cheltenham,%20Bristol,%20South%20Wales,%20Somerset).pdf

The above timetable service pattern (excluding the Weston - Super - Mare / West Country / West Wales extensions) requires 23 "Inter - City" trains & 2 non "Inter - City" Stroud Valley Line units. As you can see , there are long turnarounds at Cardiff Central , Cheltenham Spa & Swansea.

A more efficient service pattern would be as follows :

London Paddington xx00 - Reading xx26 - Didcot Parkway xx41 - Swindon xx00 - Chippenham xx15 - Bath Spa xx31 - Bristol Temple Meads xx46.

London Paddington xx15 - Reading xx41 - Swindon xx10 - Bristol Parkway arrive xx37 depart xx39 - Newport xx02 - Cardiff Central arrive xx18 depart xx19 - Bridgend xx39 - Port Talbot Parkway xx52 - Neath xx59 - Swansea xx13.

London Paddington xx30 - Reading xx56 - Didcot Parkway xx11 - Swindon xx30 - Chippenham xx45 - Bath Spa xx01 - Bristol Temple Meads xx16.

London Paddington xx45 - Reading xx11 - Swindon xx40 - Bristol Parkway arrive xx07 depart xx09 - Newport xx32 - Cardiff Central xx48.

London Paddington xx48 - Reading xx16 - Swindon arrive xx47 depart xx52 - Kemble xx07 - Stroud xx23 - Stonehouse xx29 - Gloucester arrive xx45 depart xx51 - Cheltenham Spa xx01.

Cardiff Central xx54 - Newport xx08 - Bristol Parkway arrive xx29 depart xx31 - Swindon arrive xx57 depart xx59 - Reading xx30 - London Paddington xx03.

Bristol Temple Meads xx30 - Bath Spa arrive xx41 depart xx42 - Chippenham xx55 - Swindon arrive xx10 depart xx11 - Didcot Parkway xx28 - Reading xx44 - London Paddington xx15.

Cheltenham Spa - xx15 - Gloucester arrive xx25 depart xx35 - Stonehouse xx48 - Stroud xx54 - Kemble xx08 - Swindon arrive xx22 depart xx23 - Reading xx56 - London Paddington xx26.

Swansea xx30 - Neath xx40 - Port Talbot Parkway xx49 - Bridgend xx00 - Cardiff Central arrive xx22 depart xx24 - Newport xx38 - Bristol Parkway arrive xx59 depart xx01 - Swindon arrive xx27 depart xx29 - Reading xx00 - London Paddington xx33.

Bristol Temple Meads xx00 - Bath Spa arrive xx11 depart xx12 - Chippenham xx25 - Swindon arrive xx40 depart xx41 - Didcot Parkway xx58 - Reading xx14 - London Paddington xx45.

The above timetable would still require 23 "Inter - City" trains , but with a key difference. The London - Cheltenham Spa frequency would be increased from 2 - hourly to hourly , as recommended by Jacobs Consultancy in the Greater Western Franchise Replacement Outline Business Case Report (pages 61 & 62 of the link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_foi/documents/page/dft_foi_612538.pdf

This would free up the 2 non "Inter - City" Stroud Valley Line units , thus enabling the following services to be operated :

Westbury 0745 - Trowbridge 0751 - Melksham 0800 - Chippenham 0811 - Swindon arrive 0830 depart 0833 - Didcot Parkway arrive 0855 depart 0856 - Oxford arrive 0909 depart 0911 - Islip 0924 - Bicester Town 0937.

Southampton Central 0837 - Romsey 0849 - Dunbridge 0854 - Dean 0900 - Salisbury arrive 0913 depart 0915 - Warminster 0935 - Dilton Marsh 0940 - Westbury arrive 0944 depart 0945 - Trowbridge 0951 - Melksham 1000 - Chippenham 1011 - Swindon arrive 1030 depart 1033 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1055 depart 1056 - Oxford arrive 1109 depart 1111 - Islip 1124 - Bicester Town 1137.

Salisbury 1215 - Warminster 1235 - Dilton Marsh 1240 - Westbury arrive 1244 depart 1245 - Trowbridge 1251 - Melksham 1300 - Chippenham 1311 - Swindon arrive 1330 depart 1333 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1355 depart 1356 - Oxford arrive 1409 depart 1411 - Islip 1424 - Bicester Town 1437.

Salisbury 1415 - Warminster 1435 - Dilton Marsh 1440 - Westbury arrive 1444 depart 1445 - Trowbridge 1451 - Melksham 1500 - Chippenham 1511 - Swindon arrive 1530 depart 1533 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1555 depart 1556 - Oxford arrive 1609 depart 1611 - Islip 1624 - Bicester Town 1637.

Southampton Central 1737 - Romsey 1749 - Dunbridge 1754 - Dean 1800 - Salisbury arrive 1813 depart 1815 - Warminster 1835 - Dilton Marsh 1840 - Westbury arrive 1844 depart 1845 - Trowbridge 1851 - Melksham 1900 - Chippenham 1911 - Swindon arrive 1930 depart 1933 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1955 depart 1956 - Oxford arrive 2009 depart 2011 - Islip 2024 - Bicester Town 2037.

Salisbury 1915 - Warminster 1935 - Dilton Marsh 1940 - Westbury arrive 1944 depart 1945 - Trowbridge 1951 - Melksham 2000 - Chippenham 2011 - Swindon arrive 2030 depart 2034 - Kemble 2048 - Stroud 2103 - Stonehouse 2108 - Gloucester arrive 2123 depart 2127 - Cheltenham Spa 2137.

Westbury 2245 - Trowbridge 2251 - Melksham 2300 - Chippenham 2311 - Swindon arrive 2330 depart 2333 - Didcot Parkway arrive 2355 depart 2356 - Oxford 0009.

Oxford 0545 - Didcot Parkway arrive 0556 depart 0557 - Swindon 0620 - Chippenham 0636 - Melksham 0647 - Trowbridge 0656 - Westbury arrive 0702 depart 0705 - Dilton Marsh 0708 - Warminster 0713 - Salisbury 0737 - Dean 0750 - Dunbridge 0756 - Romsey 0802 - Southampton Central 0815.

Cheltenham Spa 0540 - Gloucester arrive 0553 depart 0600 - Stonehouse 0613 - Stroud 0619 - Kemble 0633 - Swindon arrive 0647 depart 0650 - Chippenham 0706 - Melksham 0717 - Trowbridge 0726 - Westbury 0732.

Bicester Town 0942 - Islip 0954 - Oxford arrive 1008 depart 1010 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1021 depart 1022 - Swindon 1045 - Chippenham 1101 - Melksham 1112 - Trowbridge 1121 - Westbury 1127 - Dilton Marsh 1130 - Warminster 1135 - Salisbury 1156.

Bicester Town 1142 - Islip 1154 - Oxford arrive 1208 depart 1210 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1221 depart 1222 - Swindon arrive 1245 depart 1255 - Chippenham 1311 - Melksham 1322 - Trowbridge 1331 - Westbury 1337 - Dilton Marsh 1340 - Warminster 1345 - Salisbury 1406.

Bicester Town 1442 - Islip 1454 - Oxford arrive 1508 depart 1510 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1521 depart 1522 - Swindon 1545 - Chippenham 1601 - Melksham 1612 - Trowbridge 1621 - Westbury 1627 - Dilton Marsh 1630 - Warminster 1635 - Salisbury 1656 - Dean 1710 - Dunbridge 1716 - Romsey 1721 - Southampton Central 1732.

Bicester Town 1642 - Islip 1654 - Oxford arrive 1708 depart 1710 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1721 depart 1722 - Swindon 1745 - Chippenham 1801 - Melksham 1812 - Trowbridge 1821 - Westbury 1827 - Dilton Marsh 1830 - Warminster 1835 - Salisbury 1856.

Bicester Town 2042 - Islip 2054 - Oxford arrive 2108 depart 2110 - Didcot Parkway arrive 2121 depart 2122 - Swindon 2145 - Chippenham 2201 - Melksham 2212 - Trowbridge 2221 - Westbury 2227.

NOTES

1) I have not , as yet , managed to ascertain how many extra freight trains are planned for the Southampton - Chippenham corridor. However , the above timings leave plenty of room for extra freight / passenger trains to be added in the future.

2) Weston - Super - Mare / West Country / West Wales extensions would still be possible using the extra stock already allocated for those services.

3) The above timings are compatible with the proposed Weymouth - Severn Beach & Portsmouth - Cardiff timetables contained within the link below.
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=410.msg1215#msg1215

Yes, that looks excellent work, Lee.

I understand that consultations for December 2007 are due to take place in the next month, so now would be an excellent time to put this to First and show them how they can get more services and income from their resources.

P.S. Have you also released some resources in the Oxford area / Bicester service?

Lee
I like this timetable

Quote from: Graham Ellis on November 19, 2006, 08:19:17 PM

P.S. Have you also released some resources in the Oxford area / Bicester service?

It depends what you mean by "released" , Graham.

Quote from: Lee on October 28, 2006, 04:32:11 PM

Quote from: Graham Ellis on October 28, 2006, 03:48:26 PM

Quote from Wikipedia:In addition First have been unable to obtain extra stock for local services, as the DfT is refusing to underwrite the additional leasing costs (as required under the franchise regime) after forcing the leasing companies to supply Pacers at a dramatically reduced rate for use on West Country branch lines. This is despite the failed attempt to operate Pacers on the sharply curved branches in the 1980s. It is likely that some Turbos will be put into store, having been displaced on longer runs by HSTs.

I don't know the source / authority ... but is this suggesting that there's some spare trains of the type that form London - Oxford and London - Bedwyn services which are just going to be gathering dust next year? I wonder if there's any way heads could be knocked together to run a couple of them Oxford - Salisbury, via Swindon and Trowbridge ...

The Turbo units that would be suitable for the service that you suggest are Class 166 units , Graham.

Quote from the Greater Western Franchise Agreement :

"6 x Class 166 vehicles may be returned to Angel Trains in December 2006, in which case the lease of those vehicles will terminate without their being subject to any substitution requirement. If and to the extent they are retained on lease by the Franchisee those vehicles will be treated as comprising Additional Rolling Stock Investment."

This was agreed on the 6th June 2006.

Quote from: Graham Ellis on October 28, 2006, 08:40:43 PM

There was some talk along those lines, Nick, yes. It's not an easy "wll fit" / "won't fit" scenario, I don't think ... I learnt more about this later. It's that the Thames Turbos haven't actually been tried out on the route and they're slightly wider so they're not officially cleared, Trowbridge station being (it is said) the narrowest point. Real problem? Don't know!!

Although I suggested that the 166-s be used on Oxford / Salisbury, ther could be other alternatives that are multi-step offered by the extra stock availability. Or in plainer English, the 166-s could be used on a service where the line WILL take them, and release 158-s or similar for Oxford - Salisbury

According to the Greater Western Franchise Agreement , the stock due to be put into store consists of 2x 3 - car Class 166 units. I would re - deploy these (or swap them with Class 158 units) in order to provide the following services :

Oxford 0611 - Islip 0624 - Bicester Town 0637.

Oxford 0711 - Islip 0724 - Bicester Town 0737.

Oxford 0811 - Islip 0824 - Bicester Town 0837.

Bristol Temple Meads 0841 - Keynsham 0848 - Oldfield Park 0855 - Bath Spa 0858 - Chippenham 0911 - Swindon arrive 0930 depart 0933 - Didcot Parkway arrive 0955 depart 0956 - Oxford arrive 1009 depart 1011 - Islip 1024 - Bicester Town 1037.

Bristol Temple Meads 1145 - Bath Spa 1158 - Chippenham 1211 - Swindon arrive 1230 depart 1233 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1255 depart 1256 - Oxford arrive 1309 depart 1311 - Islip 1324 - Bicester Town 1337.

Bristol Temple Meads 1345 - Bath Spa 1358 - Chippenham 1411 - Swindon arrive 1430 depart 1433 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1455 depart 1456 - Oxford arrive 1509 depart 1511 - Islip 1524 - Bicester Town 1537.

Bristol Temple Meads 1545 - Bath Spa 1558 - Chippenham 1611 - Swindon arrive 1630 depart 1633 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1655 depart 1656 - Oxford arrive 1709 depart 1711 - Islip 1724 - Bicester Town 1737.

Bristol Temple Meads 1741 - Keynsham 1748 - Oldfield Park 1755 - Bath Spa 1758 - Chippenham 1811 - Swindon arrive 1830 depart 1833 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1855 depart 1856 - Oxford arrive 1909 depart 1911 - Islip 1924 - Bicester Town 1937.

Salisbury 2015 - Warminster 2035 - Dilton Marsh 2040 - Westbury arrive 2044 depart 2045 - Trowbridge 2051 - Melksham 2100 - Chippenham 2111 - Swindon arrive 2130 depart 2133 - Didcot Parkway arrive 2155 depart 2156 - Oxford arrive 2209 depart 2211 - Islip 2224 - Bicester Town 2237.

Bristol Temple Meads 2145 - Bath Spa 2158 - Chippenham 2211 - Swindon arrive 2230 depart 2233 - Didcot Parkway arrive 2255 depart 2256 - Oxford 2309.

Bicester Town 0642 - Islip 0654 - Oxford arrive 0708 depart 0710 - Didcot Parkway arrive 0721 depart 0722 - Swindon 0745 - Chippenham 0801 - Bath Spa 0813 - Oldfield Park 0816 - Keynsham 0823 - Bristol Temple Meads 0831.

Bicester Town 0742 - Islip 0754 - Oxford 0808.

Bicester Town 0842 - Islip 0854 - Oxford arrive 0908 depart 0910 - Didcot Parkway arrive 0921 depart 0922 - Swindon 0945 - Chippenham 1001 - Bath Spa 1013 - Bristol Temple Meads 1030.

Bicester Town 1042 - Islip 1054 - Oxford arrive 1108 depart 1110 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1121 depart 1122 - Swindon 1145 - Chippenham 1201 - Bath Spa 1213 - Bristol Temple Meads 1230.

Bicester Town 1342 - Islip 1354 - Oxford arrive 1408 depart 1410 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1421 depart 1422 - Swindon 1445 - Chippenham 1501 - Bath Spa 1513 - Bristol Temple Meads 1530.

Bicester Town 1542 - Islip 1554 - Oxford arrive 1608 depart 1610 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1621 depart 1622 - Swindon 1645 - Chippenham 1701 - Bath Spa 1713 - Oldfield Park 1716 - Keynsham 1723 - Bristol Temple Meads 1731.

Bicester Town 1742 - Islip 1754 - Oxford arrive 1808 depart 1810 - Didcot Parkway arrive 1821 depart 1822 - Swindon arrive 1845 depart 1855 - Chippenham 1911 - Melksham 1922 - Trowbridge 1931 - Westbury 1937 - Dilton Marsh 1940 - Warminster 1945 - Salisbury 2006.

Bicester Town 1942 - Islip 1954 - Oxford arrive 2008 depart 2010 - Didcot Parkway arrive 2021 depart 2022 - Swindon 2045 - Chippenham 2101 - Bath Spa 2113 - Bristol Temple Meads 2130.

Bicester Town 2242 - Islip 2254 - Oxford 2308.

Quote from: Lee on November 03, 2006, 04:41:53 PM

The Bristol / Southampton - Bicester services proposed above follow the same Bristol - Oxford service path that was recommended by Jacobs (pages 40 & 41 of the link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_foi/documents/page/dft_foi_612538.pdf

Introducing these services would also be a first step towards a fully - fledged East - West Rail service (link below.)
http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/

A direct service to Oxford and Bicester from Westbury/Salisbury AND Bristol would be of fantastic benefit to the region, especially since no more trains would be nessecary. I can't emphasise enough how much good this would bring to the region: Bristol, Melksham, Bicester, Salisbury...even Oldfield Park! I'm almost certain these trains would be extremely popular, and I can't fault your timings at all Lee. This proposal should most definitely be put into place.

Also , I would extend the 0842 & 1042 Bicester Town - Bristol Temple Meads services to , and start the 1145 & 1345 Bristol Temple Meads - Bicester Town services from Portishead by attaching / detaching them to / from the Gloucester - Portishead service proposed in the link below.
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=673.msg2026#msg2026

Link to the proposed timetable message and PDF of typed up timetable

http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=731.msg2149#msg2149

Let me know what you think...

Page created in 0.123 seconds with 19 queries.