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Topic: Parliamentary Question on buses to replace trains (Read 11764 times)
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Graham Ellis
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Question in Parliament - asked in writing on 20th April 361 Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell):To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, whether it is his policy to replace rail services with bus services on the (a) Par to Newquay, (b) Liskeard to Looe, (c) Totnes and Ivybridge to Plymouth, (d) Chippenham to Frome and (e) Severn Beach routes. See http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmordbk1/60420w01.htmI'll let you know as and when I see an answer - I'm not sure how long these things take but I expect it will be after the final contracts are decided this week 
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Sion Bretton
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Nice to this question being asked, my question is why is it that an MP from this area not asking this question?
Look forward to reading his reply.
Sion
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Graham Ellis
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Pehaps it's a wider issue that's been taken up by the conservative's transport spokesman  But, truely, I look with envy at some of the parliamentary support for other lines / causes.
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Lee
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Here is the answer : http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm060426/text/60426w01.htm#column_1092Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether it is his policy to replace rail services with bus services on the (a) Par to Newquay, (b) Liskeard to Looe, (c) Totnes and Ivybridge to Plymouth, (d) Chippenham to Frome and (e) Severn Beach routes. [64774] Derek Twigg: Other than the continuation of existing arrangements whereby buses provide some services between Avonmouth and Severn Beach, there is no policy to replace rail services with buses on any of these routes.
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Graham Ellis
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Although it may not be DfT policy, I've had confirmation since the question was asked that part of First Group's bid for the franchise including a reduced TRAIN service but a promise to extend the BUS to Chippenham station. Why on earth would they bid that (and win based on that bid) if it wasn't intended that the bus should pick up some of the traffic that there were no longer trains to use?
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Sion Bretton
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Lee thanks for putting th link on nice to see other MP in area talking about the Swindon/Southampton line.
MP's need to know this line is not just for us folks in Melksham, but others who want to travel between Swindon & Southampton without changing trains in Bath.
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Lee
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Here is the answer : http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm060426/text/60426w01.htm#column_1092Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether it is his policy to replace rail services with bus services on the (a) Par to Newquay, (b) Liskeard to Looe, (c) Totnes and Ivybridge to Plymouth, (d) Chippenham to Frome and (e) Severn Beach routes. [64774] Derek Twigg: Other than the continuation of existing arrangements whereby buses provide some services between Avonmouth and Severn Beach, there is no policy to replace rail services with buses on any of these routes. FROM THE CURRENT MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS TIMETABLE (up to December 2006) : Train - Trowbridge 0736 - Melksham 0745 - Chippenham 0800. Bus - Trowbridge 0740 - Melksham 0805 (schooldays) 0812 (non schooldays) - Chippenham Railway Station 0847 (schooldays) 0839 (non schooldays.) Train - Chippenham 1759 - Melksham 1809 - Trowbridge 1823. Bus - Chippenham Railway Station 1735 - Melksham 1802 - Trowbridge 1823. Train - Chippenham 2227 - Melksham 2237 - Trowbridge 2246. Bus - Chippenham Railway Station 2210 - Melksham 2230 - Trowbridge 2248. FROM THE DECEMBER 2006 MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS TIMETABLE : Train - Trowbridge 0708 - Melksham 0717 - Chippenham 0726. Bus - Trowbridge 0701 - Melksham 0721 - Chippenham Railway Station 0739. Train - Chippenham 1858 - Melksham 1908 - Trowbridge 1917. Bus - Chippenham Railway Station 1834 - Melksham 1856 - Trowbridge 1915. Looks like its SOMEBODY'S policy to me.
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« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 01:48:45 PM by Lee »
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Lee
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In my view , the above post clearly shows that the 234 bus service timetable (recently re-routed via the new bus/rail integrated transport facility at Chippenham) has been designed as a rail - replacement. I believe this forum to be widely read. Those of you who are not from the Melksham area may well be asking yourself the following question : Is Melksham an isolated example , or could this happen to MY station? From the Greater Western Franchise Agreement (the same provision is also mentioned in the Network Rail Business Plan 2006) : "The Franchisee shall carry out major investment to create integrated passenger facilities, and improve the overall Station environment and Station security at the following 28 Stations:" I list them below. Bath Spa Bristol Temple Meads Burnham Cheltenham Spa Chippenham Didcot Parkway Ealing Broadway Exeter Central Exeter St Davids Gloucester Hayes and Harlington Hungerford Maidenhead Newbury North Camp Oxford Plymouth Reading Slough Southall Swindon Taunton Tiverton Parkway Trowbridge Truro Twyford Weston-super-Mare Westbury In addition , similiar facilities either already exist or are planned at the following stations : St Erth (bus to St Ives) St Austell (bus to Newquay) Liskeard (bus to Looe) Also , I believe that the quote below should be taken into account : Here are three Third Party Promoted Schemes listed on page 32 of the Cross Country Franchise Consultation Document (link below.) http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_railways/documents/page/dft_railways_611834.pdfWorcester Parkway. Worcestershire County Council has undertaken studies in 2002 and 2004 to assess the feasibility of a new park and ride station in Worcester to provide access to national long distance rail services. Further business case development work is required. Worle Strategic Interchange. North Somerset Council, together with a consortium of partners, has an aspiration to improve Worle station to facilitate calls by inter-city services, provide improved park and ride facilities and allow for better interchange with the M5. Further feasibility and business case development work is required. Gloucestershire Parkway station. Gloucestershire County Council have an objective to deliver a park and ride new station near Gloucester and are currently undertaking detailed timetabling and feasibility work. Earlier studies indicated a potentially viable business case. Should funding be secured Gloucestershire County Council anticipate completion of the station by 2011 with an integrated bus, park and ride and railway station. First , have a look at a map and note the surrounding areas of each of the above proposed stations plus Bristol Parkway. Then imagine the likely stopping pattern of the new Cross Country Franchise trains , proposed to be 2 per hour between Birmingham & Bristol and 1 per hour continuing south of Bristol. The proposed service frequencies of the new franchise can be found on page 24 of the Consultation Document and a map can be found on page 37. Then note this proposal from "Growing the Railways." "Provide a decent station at Bromsgrove − this would have the potential to double or even treble patronage in the short term." You can see why I am concerned. I would suggest that the above , taken together , would make a "neat fit" with the quote below : A "Where do we stand" topic, posted one year after this site was started.How is it that First can make the money to pay the government 1 billion pounds over 10 years, as they've said they'll do under the Great Western franchise? Read the announcements carefully, and you'll see that they're actually receiving a subsidy for the first few years, which they then pay back and more towards the end of the contract. The award was announced in 2005. Where will things stand by 2010 and 2015? How can the operator (any operator) achieve those figures? Traffic levels ARE on 'the up', almost across the board, by rail. Nothing so spectacular as the 35% compund rise we've seen on the transWilts, but on 'the up' never the less. But the system's also creaking at the seams; 2 coach trains run on the Portsmouth to Cardiff service are inadequate, and breakdowns / substitutions on Weymouth, Severn Beach and other services - see here for further examples. I have been told that even if the 1 coach 153 train was packed every time it ran through Melksham, it would not make the money the operator needs - and that was from one of the operator's senior managers, who was also saying that the same thing applies to "even Exmouth" which is their flagship branch. So - it can't be done by traffic growth on the current setup. How csan the balance sheet be positively influenced? a) By raising fares. 16p per mile, Melksham to Swindon, 50p per mile, Chippenham to London. If you could get away with trebbling fares, you might have a better balance sheet. Now ... Melksham to Swindon Return COULD rise on a good service level to 9.50 return and I think most people would be happy to pay for the improvement. But to 21.00 return?? b) By cutting out all of the services on which a premium fare could not be charged / all the services that are run with shorter trains, with intermediate stops. This gives you a network (all expresses) in our area: 1) Cardiff, Newport, Filton Abbey Wood, Bristol, Bath, Bradford, Trowbridge, Westbury, Warminster, Salisbury, Romsey, Southampton, Fareham, Portsmouth. Run every 2 hours with a unit such as an Adalente or a Voyager, you'll be back very much to the structure of my youth when there was a handful of Swansea to Portsmouth trains each day2) London, Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Stroud, Gloucester, Cheltenham Again, every 2 hours3) London, Reading, Didcot (alternate trains), Swindon, Chippenham, Bath, Bristol every 30 minutes possibly extended to Weston-super-mare and Taunton every 2 hours unless the cross-country service continues to run South of Bristil 4) London, Reading, Newbury, Pewsey, Westbury, Castle Cary, Taunton, Tiverton, Exeter, Newton Abbott, Plymouth, major stations only to Penzance every hour to Plymouth, every 2 hours beyond5) London, Reading, Swindon, Bristol Parkway, Newport, major stations to Swansea every 30 minutes to Cardiff, every hour beyondThese are all 50p / mile services; super-savers have gone already together with a lot of other economic ticketing options, and one of my influential contacts the other day described the new single book-ahead options as "unworkable" for him as he can't plan his timing to be sure of catching the appropriate train. So on average people will be paying closer to the full fare that has been historically the case. You'll note that my model includes no train service at all for Dilton March, Bruton, Frome, Yeovil Town, Chetnole, Yetminster, Maiden Newton, Dorchester West, Melksham, Avoncliff, Freshford, Avoncliff, Oldfield Park, Keynasham, Patchway, Pilning, Stonehouse, Kemble, nor for all staions from Stapleton Road to Severn Beach inclusive. (Further afield, it only serves Cheltenham, Gloucester, Bristol (2 stations), Weston and Taunton on that route, and it excludes branch services to Exmouth, Barnstaple, Paington, Gunnislake, Looe, Newquay, Falmouth, St Ives.) Existing passengers who require public transport from the places that my model does not serve? Why - there's so often a bus run by the same operator close at hand. And that operator is investing in buses, with DfT approval / grants, to parallel routes such as Bath to Bristol (covering Oldfield Park and Keynsham). The business plan just could be to have this "premier express" only train network running by 2010, and to cream in the money from it until 2015. With a continental style, high performance bus feeder interchange system integrated with it, with freed-up rail capacity being used to get freight off the roads, wouldn't that be great? Great theory - but I really fear for a half-baked measure that would give the operator all the profit, at the expense of an overall much worse service for those of us who have to travel. If "The Twigg and Forster plan" is indeed to turn the railways into an intercity and freight network with good integrate buses - if that's the vision - the would Mr Twigg and Ms Forster please come clean and tell us? Perhaps we could then all work together for the mutual benefit of government, supplier and customer. As it is at the moment, it looks like we may have a plan that's being implemented in a secretive and underhand way, and IMHO that's very unlikely to be a visionary way forward for the future.
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Lee
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It is also my view that those who decide these matters have decided to "do a Calne" on the Melksham train service (see quote below.) This is one of the aspects of the Melksham issue that concerns me most. It looks to me like First were conducting a usage survey. Journey Statistics Link. http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=233.msg589#msg5895% from and to Chippenham. Here is Map 3 of the original Beeching Report. http://www.shropshiretransport.info/beeching/report1/maps/Map03.htmDean , Dilton Marsh & Dunbridge all appear as red dots (£0 - £5000 per annum) yet none of them appeared on the closure list. They have survived to this day. Despite this , as Graham and others are aware , I am just as concerned about the future viability of the stations above as I am about Melksham. Melksham appears as a blue dot (£5000 - £25000 per annum) yet it both appeared on the closure list and was indeed closed. However , the most facinating line in the Southampton - Swindon area that was closed in the Beeching era was Chippenham - Calne. Calne appears on Map 3 as a green dot (over £25000 per annum) Have a look at the link below. Pages 2 & 3 show how Beeching assessed passenger train services. Interestingly , just as the DfT do today , Beeching used the average passenger per train method as part of the assessment process. http://www.shropshiretransport.info/beeching/report1/15%20Appendix%202.pdfThe information below comes from Page 4 of the link above. The Chippenham - Calne line contributed a massive £56900 per annum to the revenue of other services (the highest on the list) yet Beeching concluded that only £5700 of this would be lost if the line closed. This is because he was certain that the Calne line passengers would use the bus or other forms of transport to connect with trains at Chippenham instead. Here is a link to the North East Regional Planning Assessment. http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_railways/documents/page/dft_railways_611452.pdfPage 41. "It is a feature of the North East that a significant number of people will drive some distance to join an express service on the East Coast Main Line, even where they have a local station in their own area, this practice is called ‘rail heading’. Railheading refers to driving further than necessary to reach a rail station in order to reach a more convenient service." Its a feature of Melksham passengers , for example , driving to Chippenham & elsewhere as well , especially if the service isnt as reliable as it could be. It will become more so if the proposed service cuts go through. Here is a link to a visionary November 2002 parliamentary presentation by David Redgewell of Transport 2000 (link below.) http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmtran/125/125ap06.htmOne quote in particular stands out : "A degree of regulation should also be specified, for instance, that the train arriving in Chippenham from Bristol shall be met in the forecourt by a linked Rail bus—true bus/rail integration." One of the things that I have noticed recently is that we seem to be concentrating on post - December Melksham - London connections. However , the top destination for ticket sales both into & out of Melksham is Bristol. Here is the proposed peak - time bus / rail timetable from December 2006. This involves catching bus service 234 from Melksham - Chippenham Railway Station & then taking the train to Bristol. OUTWARD JOURNEY : Melksham depart 0721 - Chippenham arrive 0739 depart 0741 - Bristol arrive 0810. This connection looks tight , but judging by the rest of the 234 timetable , it looks like a few minutes recovery time has been built in to the schedule. The Bristol arrival time is , strangely enough , EXACTLY the same time as you would arrive in Bristol catching the 0717 train from Melksham. RETURN JOURNEY : Bristol depart 1700 - Chippenham arrive 1723 depart 1735 - Melksham arrive 1802. Bristol depart 1800 - Chippenham arrive 1823 depart 1834 - Melksham arrive 1856. No such luck for Melksham passengers who want to do the whole journey by train. They have to hang around in Bristol until 1830 to catch a train that will get them back to Melksham at 1907 , with a change at Chippenham. Passengers are likely to take the rail / bus option instead.
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Sion Bretton
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I catch the train daily to Bristol from Melksham. From December 10th my options are: 1. Buy a First Bus&Rail Card weekly for £36.00 travel by bus to bath, then take the train. ( can not get a monthly pass yet)  2. Buy monthly bus ticket to Chippenham, and monthly train seaon ticket Chippenham to Bristol as staff at Chipenham Railway station advise I can not get Busplus ticket to Bristol.  3. Drive to Trowbridge or bradford on avon and take the train. extra cost petrol, parking.  4. Drive to Bristol
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Graham Ellis
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Sion,
As I just posted up on another thread, we all need to be taking steps to ensure that our futures aren't going to be adversely effected when the blade falls on 10th December. Glad to see that you've been able to put a smiley face at least against one of the options.
As part of our own business / work plans, Lisa and I have also taken steps to ensure that we're no longer reliant on the train services in and out of Melksham for weekday arrivals around 9, and weekday departures around 5. In our case, none of the 'alternatives' offered allows a Melksham arrival by public transport for 9 a.m. with a reasonable start from London that same morning; our answer is much more radical, and part of a much wider businss change - with the loss of the previously-vital trains just being one catalyst.
With a much-varied schedule and only one train per day remaining within 15 minutes of the current timing, there's going to be a huge shakeout and change around in December. It's taken time to grow the trafic to current levels, and to throw most of it away and start again, attracting fresh people who want to travel at the new times, seems a d**ned shame. It'll be the harder as I'm not sure that new trains are actually running at times that there's a possible heavy flow, and the reliability record of the current service, unfortunately, goes ahead of it and would take years to live down.
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Lee
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Question in Parliament - asked in writing on 20th April 361 Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell):To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, whether it is his policy to replace rail services with bus services on the (a) Par to Newquay, (b) Liskeard to Looe, (c) Totnes and Ivybridge to Plymouth, (d) Chippenham to Frome and (e) Severn Beach routes. See http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmordbk1/60420w01.htmI'll let you know as and when I see an answer - I'm not sure how long these things take but I expect it will be after the final contracts are decided this week  DfT (in response to FOI request.) - 1) Ivybridge usage has doubled in 4 years. 2) The significant Ivybridge passenger flows account for "c.50" people. 3) FGW proposed leasing a 153 unit for extra Ivybridge services , envisaging that it could also be used to strengthen summer services on the St Ives Branch. They also proposed that the unit be used to "re-design" Ivybridge services after December 2007 , when it was thought that the SWT services would be withdrawn (in the event , a Class 158 unit was funded by the DfT.) 4) The above proposal would have resulted in a NPV premium reduction over 10 years of £4.766m 5) This was regarded as too expensive , and a 1 year "use it or lose it" Ivybridge challenge was proposed (and since confirmed by Andrew Seedhouse at the Trowbridge meeting.) 6) DfT regarded Ivybridge's continued existence as "pointless" if nothing was done. 7) Stops in the Cross - Country Franchise were ruled out due to Virgin not allowing selective door opening , and "the franchise replacement sponsor is reluctant to allow additional calls in cross-country services for what are principally local travel needs" (Extra foresight points for Graz , who identified this problem a while back.) 8 ) The DfT wanted other options to be explored with "stakeholders"( named as Devon County Council & GOSW) , including buses.
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« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 01:10:53 PM by Lee »
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